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7/27/2005

YOU DON'T NEED NASHVILLE #7: THE HEART PART

So far in this series called YOU DON'T NEED NASHVILLE I've posted about...

...what labels actually offer their artists, or what labels do.

...what a label does to promote artists and how an indie can do a lot of those things for herself, or the basics of promoting yourself.

...how being signed to a label often comes with a price paid paid from one's personal life, or the importance of priorities

...what artists REALLY make from this business, or all about my finances.

...what wearing the label "Christian artist" means one's audience and music will more than likely end up being, or are you "Christian" enough.

...how good a recorded project needs to be depending upon its purpose and intended audience and how it can be created for less, or recording for a reason on a budget.

I hope all that helped. Thank you for the kind e-mails many of you sent me through-out this series of posts. Your encouraging words and shared revelations kept me out on this limb long enough to finish the task.

The point of this series of posts was not to convince you, the indie artist, that labels are always good or bad. Nor was it to persuade you to sign or not sign on their dotted line. The goal was to give independent artists information from my perspective, certainly not the only or best perspective, about the industry so that fewer artists in the future make decisions they later regret or that do not get them closer to their musical and ministry goals. I hope you now recognize the complexity of the decision before you and now grasp why I can't answer the question, "Should I sign a Christian record deal?" when it's thrown at me after shows from that fast moving autograph line. The answer is yours to wrestle with.

MEN-10-RIT012In the end the indie artist is neither saved nor sunk after signing with or turning down a label. And that's the subject of my last post in this series. So much of my life post-school centered around trying to discern what "God's will" was for my life. And so much of that struggled was a search for the right job, a way to make money and be satisfied. How American and how not Christian of me.

I'm not saying that my heart wasn't occupied by God, my sins not forgiven and my eternal destiny not set in the stone of salvation simply because I constantly asked the wrong question: What job does God want me to have? But asking that question most is not Christian in that it does not reflect or require the priorities and perspective of Christ to ask it. It is asked most by someone who believes their purpose and/or worth lies somewhere within the box labeled "work", that life is just what we do from 8-5.

When God's will is nothing more than a job spitting magic eight ball we behave as if occupational concerns of ours are also the chief concerns of God. We live and pray as if the epicenter of God's will and our purpose is work. It is not.

The central component of the American life is work. It has to be in order for the GNP to rise, more cars to leave showroom floors, bigger and more houses to be erected, more taxes collected, parks built and bombs manufactured. The capitalist bases her life on labor for payment. The Christian, the citizen of Heaven first, is to build her life around God's highest priorities: relationship with God and man, knowing God and making God known, service to God and man, freeing slaves of all kinds, lifting the wounded in all gutters, making peace etc. In short, our lives are to be about making invisible God visible with others from this community called Church.

And I'm able to do that in many ways from any where in the world, doing almost any job (hitman and stripper not so much), and at any pay scale.

So many times, when I'm talking with independent artists who say they want recorded deals, their reasons stem from job dissatisfaction or a basic unhappiness with their life. They see my job as the greener pasture. But please believe me when I tell you I see no more content happy people souls in Nashville's label system than I did selling Walkmans at Service Merchandise, flipping chicken breasts at Chic-fil-A, entering data at a law firm or picking up discarded bulletins from my church's floor.

Contentment, I've found, does not lie in what I do but who I am. If who you are someone who spends most of their time and thoughts on work, if what you're supposed to do for a living is the primary question you bring to God day after day, work will continue to be your god after your sign that dream record deal. And no matter how sweet the success the sour feeling in your soul today will continue to poison your life with discontent.

But if you are person using every opportunity, talent, relationship and minute of every day to make God known and know Him better then you've probably found contentment already and will carry it with you into whatever occupation is up ahead.

So the conclusion to this series is a reminder that being indie doesn't change who you are and being signed can't do that either. That doesn't mean you can't move to Nashville, sign a deal and outsell me someday. It just means that as you do so you need to remind yourself that whatever you do for a living isn't most important. God's will is more than the classifieds. He's more than a career counselor. He's the one who made you full of melodies and personality and intellect ready to be spilled out on everyone in your life right now - not just someday. Make the most of where you are. Set goals for the future. And don't forget making records will never make you successful at heart. And it's the heart that matters most to Christians.

Thanks for reading. If I can ever be of more help to you please e-mail me. I'll do my best to listen and give good information.

And I know some label types have been lurking about reading this stuff. I alsa know I'm not right about everything. So please, if you disagree, agree or can just shed better light on anything this series has covered please step out of the shadows and post your words of wisdom here as a comment. We need all the help we can get understanding the machine called Christian music.

Got thoughts? Post a comment here or discuss on the message-board.

27 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dynamite stuff.

I have to do this entertainment field "career day"-type thing next week. I will be reading this to the kiddies verbatim.

"What's God's will for my life?"

No eight ball needed. I don't think it's terribly simplistic to think the answer can be summed up in two commandments.

Brant

7/27/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

As always I like how you think, Brant. Two commands. How much easier could God make it for me but I still overcomplicate my faith.

Nice to hang out with you a little again even if it is in cyberspace.

SG

7/27/2005  
Blogger Beth said...

Shaun,
Thanks for tying up the series. My only comment on this particular installment is perspective I'm getting from this and other recent posts. Sometimes you seem to be saying that "American=UnChristian." Americans are by no means the only ones who put their jobs first, neglect their families, ignore the needy, etc. Those are HUMAN traits, not exclusively American. I think it's quite possible to be an American Christian; a very patriotic one too. Americans are more likely to be Christian than those from other nations because of our religious freedoms.

7/27/2005  
Blogger kathryn said...

i don't necessarily agree that Americans are more likely to be Christian because of the religious freedoms they enjoy. I'm thinking of the underground church in China for one. . . persecution galore, but strong, strong, marvellous Christians whose faith has been tested in the crucible of communist oppression.

just wanted to put that 'out there'. . but it IS wonderful to live in North American. We are very fortunate.

I haven't read the rest of your posts on this subject, Shaun. . but i did enjoy this one. i like what you have to say about contentment and relating to God and relating God to others. It was a good few minutes spent reading this, so thanx. I'm not in the music industry, but I do work for a living and I try to do the best at what i do and appreciate the money that helps me and my family live, while keeping my sights set on God and how much i owe him and love him, and want to help others i work with and live near, etc. . to have this same pursuit of knowing and loving him. .

7/27/2005  
Blogger kathryn said...

i forgot to ask, is that painting one of yours? i could look at that for a long time. i can't even say how i feel when i look at it. . but its bold, kinda magnetic.

7/27/2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have to agree with Kathryn, I don't think religious freedom necessarily means that you are more likely to be a Christian. Some of the biggest times of growth for the Christian church have happened in times of persecution.

I don't think that Shaun is necessarily saying that American=UnChristian either. But you must admit that a lot of our priorities today are a little twisted. And I'm not just talking about America either. It happens here in Oz too.

Sorry, this comment has very little to do with this particular blog.

7/27/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

grovesfan, I never said the tendency to place too much importance on work and pay for work is an only-American trait. Funny how defensive we all get sometimes of our nation isn't it? At least that's what I perceive from your words. An unfair assumption I admit since I don't know you and your comments, unlike mine, were too brief to really completely represent your thoughts on nation and Christianity. Unfair assuming on my part. But am I right?

So why don't we just agree, you and I, that we both live in a place called America and that we in America do place work and pay at the center of our society more often than not - believing even that to some degree we must do so in order for it to thrive.

Consider this. Fact. Adam Smith, author of The Wealth of Nations, the treatise so much of our country's economic and political structures were founded upon, is clear that in order for a capitalistic society to thrive each member of the society must look to his/her own interests above the interests of others and constantly strive to have and make more stuff for consumption. If citizens do not adopt this me first consumerism attitude capitalistic societies fail. That's Adam Smith paraphrased. And America thrives indeed.

American doesn't equal non-Christian, you're right and I never said it did, but many of America's core values and the professed beliefs of the majority of her citizens are quite opposed to original Christian thought. We are after all the wealthiest, most medicated, most depressed, most prolific producers and consumers of porn from child pornography to rape films, the greatest users of natural resources per person, among the greatest consumers of food per person, the most violent of the industrialized nations, the most church going but among the least giving of the industrialized nations of both time and money per person to charities (including church), etc. We're not ALL evil but we're a leader in the practice of is for sure. Would you agree?

Sure depravity is a human condition, an illness that all people can come down with, like a cold. But America is what I know. That's why I referenced it. it's where I live and struggle to follow Jesus. And it is quite the petri dish for this sickness in me, not creating but fertilizing and feeding the disease of selfish ambition and apathy within us all with her foundational belief that the individual is king and must live to satisfy himself in order for the nation to continue. Love of nation opens the door for the fertilizer. Patriotism assures we'll kill and die for the privilege of getting fertilized some more. And then, in time, we forget where our citizenship truly lies and what we were truly supposed to be about while visiting this place called America.

I never will forget after 9/11 when George Bush was asked what Americans could do to help the country and defeat terror in that dark hour. Two things, he said, pray and shop. Ah, I feel my inner evil nodding in approval. Mix God and money up for the perfect concoction of cultural ineffective Christianity. "Stuff is good. God is good. Stuff is good. God is good."

And as for physical freedom making humans more likely to be Christian... We have 2000 years of data to refute that assertion. Seems like a reasonable deduction but it's not. When acceptance of Christianity by government and society at-large exists (beginning with Constantine in fourth Century Rome), accompanied by physical freedom, the Church dwindles, grows apathetic and eventually is indistinguishable from the rest of culture in its methodology and theology. It has happened and is happening in America even where the last numbers I saw showed a Church growth rate of -36% in the 90's. So much for the benefits of freedom to faith.

Physical freedom then, it seems, is neither inherently good or bad. Jesus never had it, for instance yet created the Church successfully. His people the Jews hadn't had much of it when He arrived and challenged them to be perfect as their Father in Heaven is perfect. Like money it all depends on how it's spent. We're spending our freedom on Joel Osteen books, MTV, running up credit card debt, chasing better paying jobs, letting our little girls wear low rise jeans and thongs, buying coffee from Starbucks grown by slaves in the third world, working long hours, ignoring our neighbors, making always encouraging and upbeat music in God's name, downloading soft porn, not talking to our kids more than 14 minutes a day, paying day cares to care for them instead, buying better cell phone coverage and divorcing each other at an epidemic rate while the rest of the world is expected to believe we are "under God" and are His holy nation carrying out His justice on the real "evil doers" of the globe. How Christian is that?

How Christian is it for churches to take care of middle-class kids in church day cares so that two parents can work long enough hours to keep cable flowing, two cars running, toys given every Christmas to people who already have their needs met, put a computer on the desk, internet access in the house and a host of other non-essentials in our lives while Church buildings sit empty all week for the most part unused in rescuing welfare recipients from the government's lines or teaching the unlearned how to read or the addicted how to break free? A society ,crap! , a CHURCH, that places so little value on children and family and the least in favor of valuing its own creature comforts is not representing the values of Christ's kingdom very well is it? But that's what the American Church is doing, what it's sustaining and endorsing: me-first living. That is at least in part because of where it is located - is it not?

I know this all too well only because I play in churches and talk with Christians every week by the hundreds. We are not good representatives (me included) of Christ's values and character in America because we are so much like the rest of America. We value what the patriotic pagan values, what the forefathers taught us to value. We cheer that we have the right to pursue happiness yet God teaches us not to pursue out own happiness but the holiness of hearts beginning with our own. As a result the path to happiness is often at the center of every sermon and song that also bears God's name and our lives and faith are no longer peculiar in the least - for the most part. We are too good at being Americans I think. And I refuse to be. I won't serve two masters anymore.

Lastly, I don't claim to be a patriot, by the way. I'm not one. I don't love America more than any other place. I don't respect her boundaries as my own. My heart is allegiant to the kingdom of Heaven and for a time I must submit to the laws of this land until those laws restrict my obedience to my real King. And that King knows no flags or borders and He doesn't want me to be comfortable as much as He wants me to be holy and satisfied with being such. Doesn't want me to fear being labeled unAmerican. I'm a Christ follower and I believe that at times that makes me a very bad American. I'm proud of that.

An American is really just someone who lives in the place called America. And so an American should be able to be a very good follower of Christ. Geography does not determine devotion after all. But so many Christians living within this geography called America seem to be defining an American as someone who ascribes to the dominant values of the nation - and those values are seen as good. But those dominant values are capitalism and patriotism and relativism and individualism among other more noble ideals. And those values make for a nation that is less supportive of Christian discipleship than many others in history. That culture and its values are unique to America. There are others similar to it but none quite like it anywhere in any time. And I believe that a Christian who adopts many of these core values and the dominant priorities and character of this culture cannot at the same time accurately represent the core values and character of the Kingdom of God. Can we agree on that? There is much that is central to American society today that is not representative of Yaweh. Agreed?

What do you think?

Rant over.

-SG

7/27/2005  
Blogger kathryn said...

YEAH!!! wow. . that was impassioned - seemed to come from a very full heart and stirred up spirit.

you know, sometimes i tremble when i think of what God thinks about how we 'enjoy our freedoms'. . .
i forget that he's watching what i do with my life and my time and my money and my words and actions. Canada. . well we have our own problems here, wow. . don't even know where to begin. church. . .what does the Spirit say to the churches??? ahhhh. . man that's a tough few chapters to read, isn't it? but i have to see myself in these warnings. . what does the Spirit say to me????

mea culpa. . i cannot blame my godless country -- i cannot blame my apathetic, dying church, what am I doing?? how am i praying?? can i live a lifestyle of simplicity? YES. can i be a social justice activist? YES. can i donate and volunteer and give and sponsor and hurt for others? YES YES YES YES YES. . . I CAN be different. .i don't have to listen to that 'prosperity gospel' crap. . i reject that. I don't believe that Jesus wants us all to drive Bentleys or have gold sinks, or wear Rolexes. Who could believe that God wants us to be opulent when others have only 1 pair of pants, and no place to sleep? I went on a spring 3 days away in our Nation's capital. . i saw people sleeping in doorways. . i saw a quadriplegic man begging for money to buy a new wheelchair. . i saw another who couldn't look me in the eye when i said hello to him. . i saw a legless, fingerless man in a wheelchair and he looked at me and i gave him some money and he grabbed me and hugged and kissed me and held my hands with his stumps. . and i just cried. .I told him "God bless you." and he told me the same thing back. . and up the street from his begging corner stood the parliament buildings, majestic, towering edifices. . expensive-looking people buzzed around, glancing hurriedly at their watches and talking on their cells. . and we went back to our hotel and my feet walked across polished floors and i felt undeserving of a bed to sleep in and the money to rent it. . i've never been moved by any sermon like i was by that trip. .

sorry, that's a definite tangent. . i apologize.

7/28/2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally get this, Shaun, regarding allegiances.

I have read folks who write, I think convincingly, that we DO, though, have allegiances besides our allegiance to God. Really, UNDER that allegiance to God.

Like your family. Your neighborhood. Your church. Your friends. So I'm hesitant to say, "My allegiance is to God, therefore I can have no real allegiance to my country." I actually CAN, while seeing America for what it really is, ugliness and all, and seeing Americans as no more intrinsically important than anyone else.

All that you list is relevant, and unsurprising, given that humans are seriously and universally messed-up. We don't, though, have the market cornered on forced female circumcision, widows-on-the-funeral-pyre, stonings for adulterers, beheadings for apostates -- and so forth -- that still happen regularly in the nations where billions live.

There really ARE some American values which I'm happy to say, "I have an allegiance to that." Things like a commitment to individual human rights, founded in our Creator, the absence of a state-mandated religion, the separation of powers, based on an accurate understanding of the human condition -- there are quite a few, which are remarkable, really, but we don't notice because, well, we're kind of spoiled here.

I think we can (and really, DO) have allegiances to people and institutions other than God, we just can't have higher allegiances. Shoot, you have a very low-level (I'm hoping) allegiance to Dr. Pepper.

Willard said something like, "What you believe isn't what you say you believe, it's what you DO." You succeed in demonstrating that many/most Americans don't really believe what they say they believe. They've/We've got plenty of company around the globe, except that many of our values, like the ones keeping women off funeral pyres, are actually pretty dang cool, in comparison.

As for capitalism, sure. Preach on. But I love what Churchill said: Capitalism is the worst system of all -- except for all the other ones.

(I managed to not-quite-correctly quote Willard AND Churchill in one comment! Not easy, that...)

Brant

7/28/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

I agree Brant. Hope I didn't miscommunicate in my earlier rant. I don't deny that certain allegiances exist in all of us that do not undermine our allegiance to God. But my ULTIMATE allegiance is to God and all other connections or loves really do pale by comparison - to the point even that I'm tempted to say they aren't allegiances at all. Depends on one's definition of the word I guess and I don't know what the true definition should be. But yes I am somewhat loyal to Dr.Pepper and do have commitments to my wife and my church and friends but like you said those allegiances/loyalties/loves (whatever) don't get the heart of me.

And I also agree that we here in America have a lot of very admirable qualities. I said as much in my last rant. There are many noble ideals inherent to American culture. I wouldn't list individual rights as one, but we can agree to disagree on that. I'm thankful that I live here and for the stuff I enjoy here. It's just not my home. And it's not perfect. And it just might be harder to be perfect here than some other places...for me.

Great thoughts as always, brant. Thanks for posting.

My one question is - and it really is a question and not a question asked to make a point - what does "founded in our Creator" mean when you speak of individual rights? Where do we get from scripture that we have been given these rights? Seriously. I'd like to learn. I'm not saying it's not in the bible. It must be, so many people have said it, even our constitution. But where is it? Anyone? What rights does God really want all people to have?

SG

7/28/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

Did a little research at lunch on the word "allegiance". Hard to define apparently. Here's some of what I found. Hope this sheds light on just how strong a word it truly is and why I say all other commitments on earth might not truly be allegiances per se. MIGHT not.

"...implies a fidelity acknowledged by the individual and as compelling as a sworn vow ...a faithfulness that is steadfast in the face of any temptation to renounce, desert, or betray...DEVOTION stresses zeal and service amounting to self-dedication - a painter's devotion to her art...fidelity to obligations regarded as natural and fundamental"

I'm not faithful and steadfast to my nation regardless of any temptation to desert her. I would not betray her, meaning I would not aid anyone in harming her citizens physically or mentally for instance. I am not serving her or dedicated to her either and I have no fidelity to obligations to nation that I perceive as being natural or fundamental. So I guess, by definition, I'm not allegiant to country. But I'm thankful to be here and like a lot about her. My allegiance, if this definition is right, is only to God while my commitments and loves are many.

How do you define "allegiance"?

SG

7/28/2005  
Blogger Cristy said...

WOW! I never really thought about what saying the Pledge of Allegience means, until now. It's something we learn as children and commit to memory before we know what any of those words mean. As an adult, I have never thought about, in detail anyway, the meaning of each word because they came so easily from my memory.

7/28/2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

On "allegiance": I hear the word used in much more pedestrian manners all the time. Literally, product allegiance, or allegiance to the home team. I wasn't thinking "sworn vow" or "fundamental" or anything. Just to define terms.

One weird thing to me about the "Pledge of Allegiance" is vowing allegiance to a FLAG. That even struck me as weird when I was a kid. We pledge to the flag, AND to the republic for which it stands. What am I supposed to do for this flag-symbol? Will I defend it if they add a 51st state and want to add a star? Don't mess with my flag, man...

About the individual rights being founded in our Creator thing:

I give our founders a TON of credit for locating/articulating the derivation of human rights. It's completely incoherent, frankly, to champion "human rights" without establishing WHY humans have any "rights" at all. A consistent Darwinist should deny the idea of any transcendent "rights" at all. Ultimately, who's to say you have a "right" to anything, you chance-product?

To be honest, many advocacy groups undercut their own cause by arguing against religion in the public square. It's the Jewish/Christian understanding of "rights" that is an umbrella protecting us all, here, atheist and otherwise. We take down that umbrella at our own risk.

Our rights, then, are "unalienable", not because the majority voted for them, or some enlightened judges decided they'd be cool, but because we started by acknowledging that God is the ultimate source of rights -- that's remarkable in world history. A first, in the establishing of a rule of order.

(I'm referencing the Declaration here, of course.)

I was just in radical-Muslim Aceh, Indonesia, and it's that kind of experience that points out how singularly wonderful our experiment here in the U.S. is, and has been, for the world: establishing a non-theocratic government, but based on God-given rights that extend even to those who don't believe in God. This is NOT normal in human experience.

Brilliant. Wish it would spread more. I get frustrated with America, but a few forays into India, Indonesia, even Singapore, etc. -- leave me wanting to bring everyone here.

Another interesting thing you get at: the American fusion of fervent religous belief and fervent worship of money. It's fascinating to me that this started at the very beginning. (We had two original British settlements: one settled by a corporation -- at Jamestown -- and the other by radical Christians -- in Massachusetts. The dual personality continues...)

Remarkable America: the rich, and the poor, have the same life expectancy. That's stunning, in historic context for the world.

The primary nutritional issue facing our poor: Obesity. Too often, we're told, they're paying others to cook for them. Amazing. And wonderful, in a way.

Not supposed to acknowledge this, but without question: Our poor have more in common with the kings of the middle ages than with the serfs.

Our country is seriously fouled up, and seriously wonderful. Like me. Except for the wonderful part...

Brant

7/29/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

Enlightening, Brant. Good stuff.

If anyone wants to read more from brant you can check out his blog which he never plugs. It's linked to on my main page in the BETTER BLOGS section. Brant Hansen is his name. Read it daily.

Brant, and anyone else, I know "rights" are "good" and all but I still have my question about how exactly these are founded in God or endowed by Him. Endowed certainly in the sense that nothing happens without His knowing but...

Pursuit of happiness and liberty - are these inherently godly? Where do we get this idea from scripture? It sounds like Enlightenment era theology to me and not scripture. If we believe God wants every person alive to be physically free to pursue his own happiness that should drastically change the way we Christians live and think about God shouldn't it? That thinking and living would deny much of scripture would it not? How do we reconcile the two - or do we need to? Pursuit of happiness and pursuit of personal holiness and others' holiness...

Thoughts?

SG

7/29/2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The founders said "These rights don't come from a vote, not from a constitution. You have a right to your life because God gave it to you. It's not granted by us. It's just there."

And this is based on a specific conception of God, Who sees the weakest human as every bit as valuable as the richest and most powerful. In practice, we, as a nation, don't live up to this, but that doesn't mean it's not a wonderful concept in governance. We should keep pursuing this.

On liberty: Briefly, I think liberty IS inherently Godly. Jesus let non-worshipers walk away on their God-given two feet. It continues to amaze that He watches some of our CCM and some of our worship services, and doesn't "zap our dancing bear acts to smithereens", as Annie Dillard wrote. He allows a LOT of liberty.

SG: "If we believe God wants every person alive to be physically free to pursue his own happiness that should drastically change the way we Christians live and think about God shouldn't it?That thinking and living would deny much of scripture would it not?"

I really think -- not sure -- but this is related to a couple different, and conflicting, ideas of what "freedom" means.

There's "freedom" as our founders conceived it, and then there's "freedom" as we worship it now in America, even more than money.

THAT idol "freedom" is really "autonomy", which is what our elite culture worships now --that the value and quality of life = the extent of one's ability to do what one wants, when one wants.

This freedom, as an end, is patently un-Christian.

But the other is a higher freedom: a freedom FOR excellence, and this comes, ironically, through being BOUND.

Heck, the word "religion" comes from "religare", which means, literally, "to bind."

For those saying, "But Christians don't have a religion, we have relationship!", I say, "We sure as heck DO have a religion. And I'm happy for it. Sign me up and bind me to Jesus."

Because we find this freedom by surrendering the autonomy freedom. God wants us to do this willingly. (Whoever surrenders up his life for my sake...)

The truly Christian view, (I think):

We know, ultimately, we FIND freedom by surrendering it -- by binding ourselves. I am free to experience the glories of long-term marriage because I bound myself. Someone who did not bind himself this way is not free to experience this.

Shaun Groves, because he stuck with his piano lessons while his friends were outside his window freely doing what they wanted, are now FREE to create beauty.

They aren't. They had autonomy. You cashed it in for true freedom.

The best freedom, in this conception, comes from the binding. A life spent without being "bound" is a life without poetry.

This all may be off-topic, I don't know. But I'm thinking this is why there may be some confusions on whether freedom is a "good" or not. I say THIS kind of freedom is, but the other isn't, and our founding fathers definitely subsribed to the "for excellence" view of freedom.

Man, quit being interesting! I've got to do some other stuff...Fortunately, I've got madd typing skillz...

Blessed be the ties...
Brant

7/29/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

Thanks again, Brant. Great distinction between the two freedoms. Makes sense to me. What could I read about this subject in general? Too learn more. Any suggestions? Anyone?

SG

7/29/2005  
Blogger Andrew said...

Although this may not be as insightful as Brant's comments, I wanted to add my $.02. I think this "happiness" thing that keeps coming up is extremely hard to define, but is not always a bad thing. God does bring happiness in our lives, sometimes using things that are not completely "focused" on Him. Sex brings a joy and happiness that is centered on a spouse and being together and sharing what God had given. During sex, one is focused on their partner, but when done within the confines of what God has approved, marriage, it is a wonderful thing that brings pleasure, joy, and lots of happiness! Playing ball with your children, watching a funny movie, listening to music, laughing at a joke are not always 100% God centered, or not always done having God in mind, but based on His principles, these things are all acceptable and good for Christians. If any activity has things God disapproves of, discusses ungodly things, or takes us away from God, then we should not participate. Happiness is God given, and God wants us to be happy. The key is that we have priorities right. Our goal and aim has to be to serve the Lord and not harm His name or our reputation. Sadly we are human and are sinners. We have a selfish nature that puts “me #1” (sounds kinda familiar to other discussions on capitalism.:-).) God has fashioned us "in His image,” and given us emotions and qualities that reflect Him. Perhaps one of the biggest was the will He gave us. God didn’t make humans to be puppets He could control and manipulate, but He did give us the ability to choose. This is somewhat where our views of “rights” and “liberty” come from. Things God formed and fashioned us with. We in our ignorance choose evil and self fulfillment rather than the riches and glory of God. Because of our bad choice, did God take away that “liberty” or “right?” No, we have been given the liberty and freedom from God to choose almost everything in life, even our eternal destination. What an awesome responsibility! How can I in my stupidity and ignorance make any type of wise and correct decision? Luckily, God has given us directions and instruction in His Word. However, we don’t follow those instructions, and allow thoughts to deceive us. We know we have certain rights: the right to physical life or the right to use our bodies to serve Him, but we want to add things to what God gave us. We want to say we should be treated fairly, we should never be hungry, we should have 3 bedroom, 2 bath house with a 2 car garage, and 2.5 kids (how did they ever come up with that stat?) and whatever other “right” we can come up with because we go to church (most of the time), we dropped a few dollars in the offering plate, and oh, we bowed our head and prayed over our food at work (when no one could see). So therefore, we should have all these other things for ourselves. We come up with these ideas mostly out of a craving for self gratification and the want to make MY life better. However, we should be LAST on the list. What was the old Sunday School lesson? J-O-Y stands for Jesus, Others, then You. How different would our lives be if we would obey this one simple command. God first, then others more than yourself. Spending time with your kids, your spouse, your church, picking up homeless for food drives, cleaning the church, watching the nursery, teaching a lesson, and even singing in the worship service is all done for God and others. You should not even be a factor in these things. So many people today want to go to church for what they can get out of it, rather than what they can contribute and put into it. This passiveness and spiritual laziness leads to a weak, misguided, and completely unfulfilled/unhappy Christian life. If we would live more as Christ taught and love others, I believe we would have true happiness and even “liberty.” The key to both of these are similar to the discussion of allegiances. Our first priority is to God, and if these other things fall in His guidelines, then by all means be as happy as you can be! It may not be financially, or physically, or capitalisticly? free, but you will be spiritually happy. As Shaun mentioned, we are constantly “searching” for “God’s will” and always apply that to our occupations. However, we should apply that to our lives, and live as Christ lived. If God chooses to bless you financially, then pass that on to others through your church and ministry. If He blesses you in other ways, spiritually, emotionally, and physically (health) then also help others. Notice the key? Others! America does have its priorities wrong. We are selfish, egotistical, mindless babies who think that we have to have the latest car and the best biggest house. I admit, I find myself fighting those things. However, if we truly are Christians and want to have “happiness” and “liberty” we need to find it in and through Christ. If we as Christians and God’s children will act that way, we will make wherever we are geographically a “Christian” place, whether it be America, China, Pakistan, or Australia. God will have the glory and we will be happy.

The comments on this page have been very intriguing and exciting. Thanks to everyone who has written so far.

Andrew

7/29/2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Has anyone heard of this?
christianexodus.org

My spouse and I are on different sides of the coin and debated it after we saw a TV special on it the other night. Any thoughts?

7/30/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

Who said "happiness" is always a bad thing. The pursuit of happines is being questioned as a "right", first of all, and as something God wills for all people as an essential to living an abundant life, secondly. Life can't help but bring pleasure, and by one definition, happiness, to us. That's agreed,

Good thoughts.

SG

7/30/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

Andrew, sorry I posted last after skimming your lengthy paragraph-lacking post. Wow, hit the return key every once in a while. It helps us when reading your good thoughts.

Anyway, one of the things I saw in your comment I questioned was when you say we have the right to life. What do you mean by the right to life?

A follower of Christ gives up the right to his own life realizing that in fact he stands a greater chance of losing his physical life as a result of following Christ.

Can you clarify?

Not disagreeing, just wanting to learn from you.

SG

7/30/2005  
Blogger Andrew said...

My comment about the "right to life" was really talking more about a physical aspect. Again this is all under the blanket that we are living it following the guidelines God has given us.

What I mean by that is God allowed us to be conceived (a phenomenal process and in all aspects one that has a low % of success) then be born, then have the ability to breathe, and the oxygen to do so. He keeps the world in motion, at the appropriate distance from the sun to sustain life here on this planet,and then proceeds to give us all the necessities we truly need (food, water, shelter, etc.)

No one should have the ability to take that away from us, seeing as it is God given, therefore we have a "right" to life. Job is a good example (although a bit extreme). When Satan came before the Lord, the Lord allowed Satan to do everything to Job except take his life. Job 2:6

This is a fantastic story! I think it describes both of our viewpoints. Job had a right to "physical life" as I was talking about, but it also shows that he didn't really have a right to the things that happened in his life.

His possesions, family, even health were all up for being lost, but not his life. That was something God held special.

Now, in today's times, you're right. Being a follower of Christ we do give up our life for Him and stand a chance at losing it, but that still doesn't change the fact that we have a right from God to be alive. If He didn't want us to be alive, we wouldn't. To me, we should do everything possible to protect that right and also to protect the rights of others on this planet provided our actions are under Biblical guidelines.

Abortion is a huge issue right now, but I think it is Christian's responsiblity to stand up against this unjust practice. Those babies have a right to survive, and should be given the chance.

Some might say that if God wanted them to survive, he would intercede in those actions. However, we have to remember that God gave humans a free will and he will not change that will no matter how bad the consequences. He did not intercede in the garden when He knew it would eventually cost His Son. He still is the same way. He knows that what humans are doing is wrong and detrimental to His plan, but he will allow humans to continue and face the consequences of our actions.

This is why it is not appropriate for Christians to go bombing abortion clinics and other actions similar to that. We have to choose to stand up against the injustices, but it is not our "right" to take the life of the abortionist. That is up to God since he gave that right in the first place. There will be a day of judgement.

Anyway, God gives us physical life and the right to it, but that is not to say a right to what happens during that life. (If that makes sense.) As Christians we have been freed from sin, but we have become bound to Christ. We do not have a right to rule our own life or the things we do with our life. God will allow us for a certain time to excercise our free will and choose things in them, but that is just His grace. Nothing we have a right to.

Hope this clarifies.

Andrew

7/30/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

Andrew, that DOES clarify but ...

OK, so I'm just thinking out loud here (risky stuff) but babies don't have a right to live. We should not kill unborn children not because they have some right, some claim to life, but because God has a claim on them and a character and value system that is not reflected accurately here on earth when their lives are taken. God cares for the sparrow and reveals his fullness (glory) through the totality of creation, even the smallest bits of creation (Romans 1:20), giving no man the ability to claim he has not seen proof of God. Destroying a child is wrong because it misrepresents God's values in many ways AND because destroying a life takes a away a small revelation of who God is.

God is the center of His own universe. Not us. So sin is not what we do to diminish our rights or the rights of others as much it is all that diminishes the fullness of God being represented through us and others on earth. We exist to bring attention to God and not to preserve or declare our rights. I think we have none. We don't need a concept of "rights" to call this sin and that a virtue. If you cross my "rights" barrier you've wronged me and if you respect my "rights" you're virtuous.

I'm just wondering, and it's no big deal really, if "rights" are a non-Christian world-view way of establishing boundaries/law/good and evil without using God. Is it a man-made godless way of creating values and restraint, removing God from the equation and placing personal needs and human worth at the center of the system and society in HIS place.

Just a thought. Not married to any of it. Throwing it out there to be poked at and developed or shot down. I'm just fascinated in general these days by words and what they mean and digging under them to see what they really are made of. "RIghts", "pursuit of happiness", "allegiance" - all great words to pick apart. Sorry if it's annoying. Not sure any of this is really earth shattering or eternally significant. Just fun for me.

Teach me more.

SG

7/30/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

Off topic a little but found this interesting quote by Rich Mullins this morning while researching Christian views on nationalism and patriotism. What do you think about this? Crazy? Wrong? Spot on?

"A lot of my songs are really political. nobody gets it...my politics and my religious convictions. There's something offensive to me about having an American flag in a church building. When the CIA pretended to be missionaries and caused trouble in Chile so that all missionaries were kicked out, I think that makes the United States the enemy of the kingdom of God. I think a government that requires 18-year-old boys to register for the draft is anti-life. I agree that life is sacred to fetuses, but I also think it's sacred to 18-year-olds. Where were you people when Nixon was in the White House? When Lyndon Johnson was escalating the war? ...It does seem funny to me that so many people who are anti-abortion are pro-capital punishment. I really struggle with American Christianity. I'm not really sure that people with our cultural disabilities are capable of having souls, or being saved ... a culture that worships pleasure, leisure, and affluence. The church is doubly damned when they use Jesus as a vehicle for achieving all of that. Like, if you give a tithe, He'll make you rich. "

8/01/2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shaun,

Do NOT listen to Brant Hansen. Despite his stunning outward appearance, the only two commands he understands are "lies" and "deceit".

Doug Hannah

8/01/2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shaun,

Just kidding about Brant. I post similar time-wasting material on his blog all the time, much the same way I wasted your time when you were my guest on the radio.

Though Rich Mullins had a lot of good things he said to us, these comments prove no one really bats a thousand when it comes to communicating truth. However, it's a pretty amazing testimony to the power of art that 9 years after his death, we're talking about his views here.

If Rich was saying allegiance to one's nation, ANY nation, and being disciple of Christ were incompatible, that would be incorrect.

If he's saying that it's only wrong to pledge allegiance to AMERICA while also pledging allegiance to Christ, then he (was) on thin ice. If one wants to measure our righteousness as a country by pulling out the scales and weighing the good stuff vs. the bad stuff, compared to other countries, it's pretty hard to say America has done more harm than good, in Kingdom terms. Then again, by THAT standard, we're ALL doomed. This is why I'm glad God doesn't allow or deny me a place in His kingdom by doing this.

If he was somehow saying that our allegiance to Christ comes first over our allegiance to our country, well, that would be correct.

But it's pretty clear that's not what he was saying.

Doug

8/01/2005  
Blogger Andrew said...

Ok, my responses to the past two comments.

First, about the rights topic. I'm still going to have to say that everyone has the right to life. I agree that "Destroying a child is wrong because it misrepresents God's values in many ways AND because destroying a life takes a away a small revelation of who God is." as you said, but it is more so wrong because God forbade it in Exodus with the Ten commandments! It can't get any more clear that "THOU SHALT NOT KILL!" God forbade us from killing. To me, that give each human a right from God of life.

Now, I also have to agree that the life is God's and He can do with it what He wants, but as far as in relation of one human life to another, I have to say there are some rights. The Bible has many examples of birth-rights and privilages that were granted to the firstborn. The instructions regarding these birthrights are given in Deut. 21:15-17.

I like the idea you proposed of rights being "a man-made way of creating values and restraint," but I'm not sure if it is always "godless" or "removing God from the equation and placing personal needs and human worth at the center of the system and society in HIS place." I think that we as humans take our "rights" too far as I've posted before, but I still think that some times it is done more with the goal of honoring God. In speaking of some of our founding fathers, they believed we all should be able to serve and worship God without the influence or fear of a higher political power. With the establishment of our constitution and America, the citizens of the country (even the temporary ones Shaun :-) ) have a freedom to do that amongst other "rights" given to us by our country.

So, this basically rolls back around to what you said. It is a man-made thing, but...I can't agree that it is always Godless or a bad thing that separates us from God. In my case it has drawn me closer to Him. If my parents had not had the liberty and freedom, how do I know that they would have risked life to bring me up in church? Now I am of the age where I choose, and I am thankful I don't have to face religious persecution like those in China. Does that mean I'm not as strong a Christian or my faith doesn't mean as much to me as to them? Maybe, but I don't think the gift I have of "freedom" is bad or the cause of it. My attitude is the cause of my lacksidasical approach and views of God.

I guess I'll have to agree with some of what you said, but also, disagree with other parts of it. I see what you're saying, but I don't know if I can swallow all of it right now. Maybe you need to teach me some more. :-)

Now about Rich's comment.....

Can't say I'm on board with all that either. I agree with about the last..ummm....sentence or two of it. I hate this "health and wealth gospel," think it is wrong and is very manipulative of God.

Now about the American Flag in churches, I think that is way off base. We shouldn’t worship the Flag, but we also do not worship screens, PowerPoint presentations, pianos, instruments, flower arrangements, or anything physical in the building. But…we can use all those things to aid us in worshiping God. We can worship God and I think we should thank Him for the benefits He has given us with this country. He has made our lives much easier by placing us here in this day and age. (Is easier always better? Not always, but He has put us here for some reason.) I think it is kind of a mockery to not thank God for what He has provided for us through our country.

This point blends into the next point he made about the CIA and Chile. While this is a horrible thing to happen and not right at all, we have to use some type of logic here. Just because someone who is a “part” of us does something wrong, does that mean we abandon all association with that group. If so, then we should not call ourselves Christian because a “Christian” bombed an abortion clinic, or murdered someone, or committed some sexual crime. We need to realize that we still live on earth and yes, there are going to be horrible things done in our country and by the people who live there. However, we have to realize that those are individual people and it is wrong. (A side about the CIA…some say it is not a totally American organization and is not always operating under American control or in America’s best interest)

Now about the draft, I don’t really know if signing up for the draft is signing up for death. If we are going to believe that what we have here in America is for the most part good, then we also need to be willing to protect what we have. If a draft was ever instituted, one can go to another country and “dodge.” Apparently, it doesn’t influence a person’s future after the war, seeing as our former president did it and served 8 years. Again, we live in a human world and an evil one, and there are those who hate the lack of religious persecution here, and would like to take away those “freedoms” with force. Unfortunately, violence ensues and….well, we can get into a whole other conversation about war and when, where, who, or whether or not it is right or wrong. But signing up for the draft does not mean one will die.

Also, I’m not going to touch the capital punishment issue right now, you and I probably don’t have enough time or space for that one 

Finally, I am more than a bit disturbed by his comment, “I'm not really sure that people with our cultural disabilities are capable of having souls, or being saved ... a culture that worships pleasure, leisure, and affluence.” I believe anyone, no matter what they have done can be saved. To make a statement like the above (while I think I understand what he means) is dangerous and really goes against what the Bible teaches. All have souls, and God wishes that all would be saved. I do believe that if one worships the things he says, it is unlikely they will be saved, but…God saves those who ask, and we have to turn from our wicked ways and repent and be saved. Now, does that mean we will never sin again. NO! But we are to constantly put those things away. It is true “a man cannot serve two masters, God and money,” but to say that all Americans are that way is the same as saying all Arabs are Muslim and hate Christians and America. Not true and painting with to large a brush there.

I really like Rich Mullins and the things he stood for and the way he would really preach an effective, convicting “sermon” in his concerts and through his music, but I’m going to have to say I don’t agree with what he said here. If I’m interpreting what he said based on other things I’ve heard from him and how he lived his life, I can see what he means better, but…from a direct quote view, I think I have to disagree.

It’s great you put this in front of us Shaun! It makes us think and discuss. I like it. I also like that Rich had the proverbial “balls” to stand up and say it. I’m sure he took a lot of heat due to his comments. This is so encouraging to see the diversity of our beliefs, and to realize we all still serve the same God and are all trying in our unworthy ways to worship and please Him.

Thanks for this opportunity to grow from each other. It is a blessing!

Andrew
p.s. I e-mailed you a few letters, but have been having some trouble with my e-mail. Did you get them? They should have come from andrew@andrewlael.com Just let me know. Thanks!

8/01/2005  
Blogger Shaun Groves said...

Thanks for the great comments. Good learning from you all. Not sure what I think about Rich's words either but they made me think and, well, that's something few Christian artists really cause me to do these days. And I appreciate that about Mr.Mullins. He stretches me.

Andrew, I got you mail but honestly haven't made the time to read it all yet. I want to read and not skim your words and have the time to respond. Thanks for being patient. Someday I'll get to them.

-SG

8/03/2005  

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